"Ḥāfiẓ refers several times to the angels’ inability to understand love and the relationship between man and God. God invites the angels to the spectacle of creation to admire mankind, but when they hear that God is planning to appoint man as a vicegerent on earth (2:30), the angels wonder whether man is going to misuse his power and cause damage. Iblīs, or Satan, started an argument with God, disobeying His command to prostrate himself before mankind. Although ultimately Iblīs was the only angel who disobeyed God’s command, Ḥāfiẓ states that angels generally do not know love: 'O cup-bearer, angels do not know what love is. Ask for a beaker and pour rosewater on Adam’s clay'.
& 'When Your countenance was revealed, it saw that angels had no love, Its honour offended, it became all fire, and struck Adam’s soul. O angel, give praise at the door of love’s wine-house For inside, they are leavening the clay of mankind.'
Using the imperative ‘praise’ in addressing the angels, Ḥāfiẓ highlights the special loving relationship between man and his Creator. Man’s nature is prepared in the wine-house of love to which angels have no access; they should stay outside the door, simply praising God.
We have already seen how Iblīs refused to prostrate himself before Adam. As a lover of God, who had devotedly worshipped Him, Iblīs became jealous when he witnessed the loving relationship between God and mankind. The story of his disobedience as told by the mystics is complicated by the element that, when the angels bowed before Adam, they saw the image of God in him, thus avoiding the idolatry which Iblīs had said would occur. In one of his couplets, Ḥāfiẓ states: When the angels bowed before Adam, their intention was to kiss the ground before you."
- Hafiz and the Religion of Love in Classical Persian Poetry, Leonard Lewisohn
You and Sethu have given me much food for thought. Never dwelt much on the angelic nature. I wonder if the angels have their own apocalyptic arc going from praise to true love? Or are they really just static creatures? Perhaps I misunderstand their nature entirely. Will check out Wings of Desire.and Hafiz!
I suppose their apocalyptic arc has to be "the fall". One idea that they just praise is that they are too "close" to God, that God is too Majestic and when something is so Majestic, you are afraid to enter a communion with it. You just bow down and praise but cannot hear it, see it, experience it, and even less know it. There is a famous hadith: "I was a Secret Treasure and I wanted to be known.", so the Supreme wants to be known, not just praised, and knowing is only possible via love / communion. One could relate to this that in Buddhist traditions (in this moment I can recall Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche mention it in his "Living is Dying") that all beings, even in realms of gods etc pray for the human birth because there is nothing more auspicious than a human birth, the human body being one condition for liberation.
Another perspective is that God, when making Adam & Eve, used both his hands to create them, while angels were made only with right and the devils only with left. So the humanity is that which unifies the left and right, the middle pole in the Tree of Life that contains both the branches.
Very thoughtful response. I resonate with your take on Adam and Eve for sure. There are strands of Christianity that are too focused on the second coming. The mystery is still being unveiled but that unveiling requires our active participation. For we are the viceregents as you say. We are meant to aid in the unity of creation. We embody it. Thank you!
Hmm, what about angels as messengers and not a "species"? As when magical spells in fairys' tails are cast and often bring unforeseen things, it would seem like nothing new is really called up by a spell but rather a moment from outside the poetic veil is brought into the now, a moment which already is populated and surrounded by wills and lives that aren't glimpsed by the unpoetic mind. The prophets are in a sense angels when they are being sent by God, these beings leading an existence of tones and shades of emotions and colours in the shades, couldn't they be sent by God as well, and that would be when a "real angel" is going forth?
I am not trying to be poetic, I just can't express it in a normal rational way. But angels longing for human experience feels off somehow. We are supposedly three dimensional beings, but like Ouspensky shows, we are really multi dimensional, it's just our self imposed limited ways of perceiving that locks us in x, y and z. If other creations' "x, y, z" are not based on your clay circle, they might have their own equivalent to our bodies, and "demonic" as below even the beastialic in St Paul's words would thus make sense for a being e.g. made of tones (as a bad example] giving in to spectral ideas of sexual intercourse in the flesh.
That's an interesting way of looking at it, but I'm pretty sure that angels are a "species," and that they long for human experience. Makes intuitive sense to me—and, evidently, to Hafiz, as shown in Naida's comment here.
Also, watch *Wings of Desire*, if you haven't! Best film ever.
I have a difficulty with the sufis. Ibn Arabi’s first revelation e.g. was when Jesus came to him, but his muslim thinking got the upper hand so it wasn’t That Jesus in the end to him, it became the dude Isa who is friends with Mehmet
Yes, but, hmm, not all of them. The high level ones, but to enter as a member in almost all orders you must be muslim, and the training inside the order begins with the muslim law, which is sort of a joke when Jesus tells us to grow up and love instead of “being humble” by following the rules of others. So someome could be a swine but just have a sense of spiritual longing to join an order.
And it’s curious how the members of the local Naqshbandi order here always look sour when they leave their friday meetings
How do you understand the phenomenon of "mind" and "consciousness", from a Christian perspective in which we participate or strive towards "Christ's mind"? (For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ... 1 Corinthians 2:16...{for those more inclined towards specific bible quotations}) Of course, it can't just be a material effect of the brain. We're not computers. And computers, no matter how sophisticated cannot participate in this reality which is fundamentally composed of an intrinsic relationship between God, man and the world.(what some have called cosmotheandric) I also came across two concepts, from very different fields, that try to describe the fundamental structure of the universe (may we say "Mind"?) in a geometrical description: fundamental quantum geometry, and Indra's Net. I know very little of both. Indra's net in Wikipedia is described thus: "Far away in the heavenly abode of the great god Indra, there is a wonderful net which has been hung by some cunning artificer in such a manner that it stretches out infinitely in all directions. In accordance with the extravagant tastes of deities, the artificer has hung a single glittering jewel in each "eye" of the net, and since the net itself is infinite in dimension, the jewels are infinite in number. There hang the jewels, glittering "like" stars in the first magnitude, a wonderful sight to behold. If we now arbitrarily select one of these jewels for inspection and look closely at it, we will discover that in its polished surface there are reflected all the other jewels in the net, infinite in number. Not only that, but each of the jewels reflected in this one jewel is also reflecting all the other jewels, so that there is an infinite reflecting process occurring".
You could say that mind is between soul and spirit, both a border and a conversation. If mind is a woman, then it is both a microcosm of Sophia and of the church, where Mind is informed, like the seed informs the earth, by imagination.
"Ḥāfiẓ refers several times to the angels’ inability to understand love and the relationship between man and God. God invites the angels to the spectacle of creation to admire mankind, but when they hear that God is planning to appoint man as a vicegerent on earth (2:30), the angels wonder whether man is going to misuse his power and cause damage. Iblīs, or Satan, started an argument with God, disobeying His command to prostrate himself before mankind. Although ultimately Iblīs was the only angel who disobeyed God’s command, Ḥāfiẓ states that angels generally do not know love: 'O cup-bearer, angels do not know what love is. Ask for a beaker and pour rosewater on Adam’s clay'.
& 'When Your countenance was revealed, it saw that angels had no love, Its honour offended, it became all fire, and struck Adam’s soul. O angel, give praise at the door of love’s wine-house For inside, they are leavening the clay of mankind.'
Using the imperative ‘praise’ in addressing the angels, Ḥāfiẓ highlights the special loving relationship between man and his Creator. Man’s nature is prepared in the wine-house of love to which angels have no access; they should stay outside the door, simply praising God.
We have already seen how Iblīs refused to prostrate himself before Adam. As a lover of God, who had devotedly worshipped Him, Iblīs became jealous when he witnessed the loving relationship between God and mankind. The story of his disobedience as told by the mystics is complicated by the element that, when the angels bowed before Adam, they saw the image of God in him, thus avoiding the idolatry which Iblīs had said would occur. In one of his couplets, Ḥāfiẓ states: When the angels bowed before Adam, their intention was to kiss the ground before you."
- Hafiz and the Religion of Love in Classical Persian Poetry, Leonard Lewisohn
Thank you!—that’s perfect.
Most welcome!
You and Sethu have given me much food for thought. Never dwelt much on the angelic nature. I wonder if the angels have their own apocalyptic arc going from praise to true love? Or are they really just static creatures? Perhaps I misunderstand their nature entirely. Will check out Wings of Desire.and Hafiz!
I suppose their apocalyptic arc has to be "the fall". One idea that they just praise is that they are too "close" to God, that God is too Majestic and when something is so Majestic, you are afraid to enter a communion with it. You just bow down and praise but cannot hear it, see it, experience it, and even less know it. There is a famous hadith: "I was a Secret Treasure and I wanted to be known.", so the Supreme wants to be known, not just praised, and knowing is only possible via love / communion. One could relate to this that in Buddhist traditions (in this moment I can recall Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche mention it in his "Living is Dying") that all beings, even in realms of gods etc pray for the human birth because there is nothing more auspicious than a human birth, the human body being one condition for liberation.
Another perspective is that God, when making Adam & Eve, used both his hands to create them, while angels were made only with right and the devils only with left. So the humanity is that which unifies the left and right, the middle pole in the Tree of Life that contains both the branches.
Very thoughtful response. I resonate with your take on Adam and Eve for sure. There are strands of Christianity that are too focused on the second coming. The mystery is still being unveiled but that unveiling requires our active participation. For we are the viceregents as you say. We are meant to aid in the unity of creation. We embody it. Thank you!
Most welcome dear Adrian! Enjoy!
Hmm, what about angels as messengers and not a "species"? As when magical spells in fairys' tails are cast and often bring unforeseen things, it would seem like nothing new is really called up by a spell but rather a moment from outside the poetic veil is brought into the now, a moment which already is populated and surrounded by wills and lives that aren't glimpsed by the unpoetic mind. The prophets are in a sense angels when they are being sent by God, these beings leading an existence of tones and shades of emotions and colours in the shades, couldn't they be sent by God as well, and that would be when a "real angel" is going forth?
I am not trying to be poetic, I just can't express it in a normal rational way. But angels longing for human experience feels off somehow. We are supposedly three dimensional beings, but like Ouspensky shows, we are really multi dimensional, it's just our self imposed limited ways of perceiving that locks us in x, y and z. If other creations' "x, y, z" are not based on your clay circle, they might have their own equivalent to our bodies, and "demonic" as below even the beastialic in St Paul's words would thus make sense for a being e.g. made of tones (as a bad example] giving in to spectral ideas of sexual intercourse in the flesh.
That's an interesting way of looking at it, but I'm pretty sure that angels are a "species," and that they long for human experience. Makes intuitive sense to me—and, evidently, to Hafiz, as shown in Naida's comment here.
Also, watch *Wings of Desire*, if you haven't! Best film ever.
I have a difficulty with the sufis. Ibn Arabi’s first revelation e.g. was when Jesus came to him, but his muslim thinking got the upper hand so it wasn’t That Jesus in the end to him, it became the dude Isa who is friends with Mehmet
I just go with "By their fruits shall they be known," and the fruits of the Sufis are sweet indeed.
Yes, but, hmm, not all of them. The high level ones, but to enter as a member in almost all orders you must be muslim, and the training inside the order begins with the muslim law, which is sort of a joke when Jesus tells us to grow up and love instead of “being humble” by following the rules of others. So someome could be a swine but just have a sense of spiritual longing to join an order.
And it’s curious how the members of the local Naqshbandi order here always look sour when they leave their friday meetings
Well, that goes for all social groups and orders, of course. It’s a cross-sectional affair: taste the fruit to find out who’s what.
Well I do would like a christian sufi order.
Yes I’ve been searching for it on youtube but so for I only got videos commenting on it. It should be there as its quite old
Only 1987—it’s still under copyright.
How do you understand the phenomenon of "mind" and "consciousness", from a Christian perspective in which we participate or strive towards "Christ's mind"? (For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ... 1 Corinthians 2:16...{for those more inclined towards specific bible quotations}) Of course, it can't just be a material effect of the brain. We're not computers. And computers, no matter how sophisticated cannot participate in this reality which is fundamentally composed of an intrinsic relationship between God, man and the world.(what some have called cosmotheandric) I also came across two concepts, from very different fields, that try to describe the fundamental structure of the universe (may we say "Mind"?) in a geometrical description: fundamental quantum geometry, and Indra's Net. I know very little of both. Indra's net in Wikipedia is described thus: "Far away in the heavenly abode of the great god Indra, there is a wonderful net which has been hung by some cunning artificer in such a manner that it stretches out infinitely in all directions. In accordance with the extravagant tastes of deities, the artificer has hung a single glittering jewel in each "eye" of the net, and since the net itself is infinite in dimension, the jewels are infinite in number. There hang the jewels, glittering "like" stars in the first magnitude, a wonderful sight to behold. If we now arbitrarily select one of these jewels for inspection and look closely at it, we will discover that in its polished surface there are reflected all the other jewels in the net, infinite in number. Not only that, but each of the jewels reflected in this one jewel is also reflecting all the other jewels, so that there is an infinite reflecting process occurring".
I describe consciousness (or soul) as the light of spirit reflecting on the water of psyche. A sketch of my overall metaphysical picture is over here:
https://beulahrising.substack.com/p/presence-versus-specter
You could say that mind is between soul and spirit, both a border and a conversation. If mind is a woman, then it is both a microcosm of Sophia and of the church, where Mind is informed, like the seed informs the earth, by imagination.
§138 is great. The angelic envy of man gets a new twist.
Some brilliant insights here.
Thinking of *Wings of Desire*, of course.
Yes, you could have stolen a screen shot.
I like the meditation on the angel who ends in hell through his envy for flesh combined with his (cowardly?) inability to make the leap.
Cassiel in the film is this angel, Damiel is the braver "fallen" angel.